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	<title>Comments on: Poetry or Not</title>
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		<title>By: Neal Whitman</title>
		<link>http://shortpoem.org/poetry-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-759</link>
		<dc:creator>Neal Whitman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 22:49:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shortpoem.org/?p=1228#comment-759</guid>
		<description>As Michael has written in his President&#039;s column in the Tanka Society of America&#039;s journal, Ribbons, short poetical forms in English have been greatly enriched by Japanese and Chinese traditions.  What I love (let me count the ways) about Getting Something Read is that its editors welome Western, Eastern and hybrid verse. Please seek out the online and journals Michael alludes to, but send your best here. Okay?

Short, but not brief,
Neal</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Michael has written in his President&#8217;s column in the Tanka Society of America&#8217;s journal, Ribbons, short poetical forms in English have been greatly enriched by Japanese and Chinese traditions.  What I love (let me count the ways) about Getting Something Read is that its editors welome Western, Eastern and hybrid verse. Please seek out the online and journals Michael alludes to, but send your best here. Okay?</p>
<p>Short, but not brief,<br />
Neal</p>
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		<title>By: Michael McClintock</title>
		<link>http://shortpoem.org/poetry-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-758</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael McClintock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Dec 2009 21:30:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shortpoem.org/?p=1228#comment-758</guid>
		<description>This discussion of haiku is one of the best I&#039;ve read in quite some time. It was a real delight to track it down, through a recent contact with Neal Whitman. Some readers of this exchange regarding haiku may also enjoy sampling, enjoying, and exploring the great waka (tanka) literature of Japan and what is occurring in English-language tanka poetry around the world. There are plenty of portals to it available through search-engines on the Web. 

Yours,
Michael McClintock
President, Tanka Society of America</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This discussion of haiku is one of the best I&#8217;ve read in quite some time. It was a real delight to track it down, through a recent contact with Neal Whitman. Some readers of this exchange regarding haiku may also enjoy sampling, enjoying, and exploring the great waka (tanka) literature of Japan and what is occurring in English-language tanka poetry around the world. There are plenty of portals to it available through search-engines on the Web. </p>
<p>Yours,<br />
Michael McClintock<br />
President, Tanka Society of America</p>
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		<title>By: Neal Whitman</title>
		<link>http://shortpoem.org/poetry-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-754</link>
		<dc:creator>Neal Whitman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:07:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shortpoem.org/?p=1228#comment-754</guid>
		<description>Gosh. I hope that &quot;Short Poetry&quot; is not going to be called &quot;Haiku&quot; because of brevity and syllabic count. Blyth put it this way: &quot;It seems clear that the whole matter of syllables and lines is an arbitrary one, and should be. For Haiku is ultimately more than a form (or even a kind of poetry): it is a a Way - &quot;one of living awareness.&quot; Of course, in my essay and in comments posted by readers, we see that his adding  the parenthetical &quot;or even a kind of poetry&quot; is a point of contention. But, please. Let&#039;s agree that haiku, whether it is a kind of poetry or not, is its own essence — yes, it is short, but it is a special short form separate and distinct from the  limmerick, clerihew, fib, etheree, and other short forms available to poets. &quot;Short&quot; describes length and is not a  category. Likewise, the epic and the saga are both &quot;long&quot;, but one is not the other.

Randy Brooks, editor of Mayfly, adds one more thought to the distinctness of haiku as more than any ol&#039; short verse: 

&quot;There is a misconception about Haiku - that it is remotely related to the 5-7-5. The most characteristic thing about haiku is there&#039;s a silent pause in the middle. You get one image and then there&#039;s this pause, this silence, and then you get this second image.&quot;

Water is water and tea is tea,

Neal</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gosh. I hope that &#8220;Short Poetry&#8221; is not going to be called &#8220;Haiku&#8221; because of brevity and syllabic count. Blyth put it this way: &#8220;It seems clear that the whole matter of syllables and lines is an arbitrary one, and should be. For Haiku is ultimately more than a form (or even a kind of poetry): it is a a Way &#8211; &#8220;one of living awareness.&#8221; Of course, in my essay and in comments posted by readers, we see that his adding  the parenthetical &#8220;or even a kind of poetry&#8221; is a point of contention. But, please. Let&#8217;s agree that haiku, whether it is a kind of poetry or not, is its own essence — yes, it is short, but it is a special short form separate and distinct from the  limmerick, clerihew, fib, etheree, and other short forms available to poets. &#8220;Short&#8221; describes length and is not a  category. Likewise, the epic and the saga are both &#8220;long&#8221;, but one is not the other.</p>
<p>Randy Brooks, editor of Mayfly, adds one more thought to the distinctness of haiku as more than any ol&#8217; short verse: </p>
<p>&#8220;There is a misconception about Haiku &#8211; that it is remotely related to the 5-7-5. The most characteristic thing about haiku is there&#8217;s a silent pause in the middle. You get one image and then there&#8217;s this pause, this silence, and then you get this second image.&#8221;</p>
<p>Water is water and tea is tea,</p>
<p>Neal</p>
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		<title>By: ef shaffi</title>
		<link>http://shortpoem.org/poetry-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-753</link>
		<dc:creator>ef shaffi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 05:20:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shortpoem.org/?p=1228#comment-753</guid>
		<description>The original question posed was  is Haiku Short Poetry? which inevitably turns itself round to  wonder is Short Poetry going to be called Haiku because of brevity and syllabic count. Could be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The original question posed was  is Haiku Short Poetry? which inevitably turns itself round to  wonder is Short Poetry going to be called Haiku because of brevity and syllabic count. Could be.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Stacy</title>
		<link>http://shortpoem.org/poetry-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-752</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Stacy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 02:33:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shortpoem.org/?p=1228#comment-752</guid>
		<description>Neal,  great topic, wonderful thoughts. Where to begin? 

The essence of a haiku, I feel, is in bringing the magic of the moment, &quot;the reveal&quot;, to the reader. In whatever form, whatever season. So many haiku I read now are just a sentence broken into three lines. No cutting word, maybe a seasonal word thrown in, no &quot;reveal&quot;.  Cute, but not haiku -- to me.  If I &quot;see&quot; something, and can formulate a reveal on the spot -- brilliant. Often I am not brilliant, but I take notes and come back later, so I may not finish something in the same season. This one haunted me for years until I found the right sequence:

Autumn dusk
Crows fly home
Random particles of night

So your other point: is haiku not not poetry? Well, why wouldn&#039;t it be if it gives us a special glimpse, an insight into the mysteries that surround us?
Perhaps Blyth says it best: 
&quot;Haiku has a wide range that includes all science, all fact within it, and goes beyond it, pointing with no uncertain finger to the ground of being, the living tie that binds all things together in one. When we attempt to explain it, we say it is a mystery, but to the poet there is a region beyond wonder, where the commonplace and the wonderful are not distinguished, where the thusness of things is bright with a light that never was on sea or land, and yet is oddly always there. ... Here is an interpenetration of substance and mind in which life flows unimpeded through the poet and through the things equally.&quot;  -- R.H. Blyth</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neal,  great topic, wonderful thoughts. Where to begin? </p>
<p>The essence of a haiku, I feel, is in bringing the magic of the moment, &#8220;the reveal&#8221;, to the reader. In whatever form, whatever season. So many haiku I read now are just a sentence broken into three lines. No cutting word, maybe a seasonal word thrown in, no &#8220;reveal&#8221;.  Cute, but not haiku &#8212; to me.  If I &#8220;see&#8221; something, and can formulate a reveal on the spot &#8212; brilliant. Often I am not brilliant, but I take notes and come back later, so I may not finish something in the same season. This one haunted me for years until I found the right sequence:</p>
<p>Autumn dusk<br />
Crows fly home<br />
Random particles of night</p>
<p>So your other point: is haiku not not poetry? Well, why wouldn&#8217;t it be if it gives us a special glimpse, an insight into the mysteries that surround us?<br />
Perhaps Blyth says it best:<br />
&#8220;Haiku has a wide range that includes all science, all fact within it, and goes beyond it, pointing with no uncertain finger to the ground of being, the living tie that binds all things together in one. When we attempt to explain it, we say it is a mystery, but to the poet there is a region beyond wonder, where the commonplace and the wonderful are not distinguished, where the thusness of things is bright with a light that never was on sea or land, and yet is oddly always there. &#8230; Here is an interpenetration of substance and mind in which life flows unimpeded through the poet and through the things equally.&#8221;  &#8212; R.H. Blyth</p>
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		<title>By: Neal Whitman</title>
		<link>http://shortpoem.org/poetry-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-751</link>
		<dc:creator>Neal Whitman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 00:26:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shortpoem.org/?p=1228#comment-751</guid>
		<description>Justice Stewart Potter, in Jacobellis v. Ohio, said, &quot;I know it when I see it.&quot; Ah, Fletch, there&#039;s the rub. Isn&#039;t writing &quot;you know what you see&quot; the tail wagging the dog? How inconvenient for Potter to use 7 syllables. Your verse (sorry, it is not haiku) crow bars the phrase into 5 syllables. But, I do not have the final word. Readers do. If they get a feeling from the 5-7-5 form you used to compress your thoughts, they you succeeded. Hat off.


Neal</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justice Stewart Potter, in Jacobellis v. Ohio, said, &#8220;I know it when I see it.&#8221; Ah, Fletch, there&#8217;s the rub. Isn&#8217;t writing &#8220;you know what you see&#8221; the tail wagging the dog? How inconvenient for Potter to use 7 syllables. Your verse (sorry, it is not haiku) crow bars the phrase into 5 syllables. But, I do not have the final word. Readers do. If they get a feeling from the 5-7-5 form you used to compress your thoughts, they you succeeded. Hat off.</p>
<p>Neal</p>
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		<title>By: AgSynclair</title>
		<link>http://shortpoem.org/poetry-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-750</link>
		<dc:creator>AgSynclair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 00:11:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shortpoem.org/?p=1228#comment-750</guid>
		<description>Looking forward to your thoughts on senryu, Neal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looking forward to your thoughts on senryu, Neal.</p>
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		<title>By: Neal Whitman</title>
		<link>http://shortpoem.org/poetry-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-748</link>
		<dc:creator>Neal Whitman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 23:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shortpoem.org/?p=1228#comment-748</guid>
		<description>Patricia is a true poet and also a master teacher of haiku. So, we welcome her bringing Marjorie Perloff into the conversation, especially because Perloff is a major voice in breaking down the barriers between traditional and experimental poetry (But, wait a sec isn&#039;t every poem an experiment?). Building on poetry as the &quot;language art,&quot; another wonderful poet, Molly Peacock, adds that poetry is really the fusion of three arts: music, story-telling, and painting.
Friend of all poetry,
Neal</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patricia is a true poet and also a master teacher of haiku. So, we welcome her bringing Marjorie Perloff into the conversation, especially because Perloff is a major voice in breaking down the barriers between traditional and experimental poetry (But, wait a sec isn&#8217;t every poem an experiment?). Building on poetry as the &#8220;language art,&#8221; another wonderful poet, Molly Peacock, adds that poetry is really the fusion of three arts: music, story-telling, and painting.<br />
Friend of all poetry,<br />
Neal</p>
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		<title>By: Rolland Fletcher,Jr</title>
		<link>http://shortpoem.org/poetry-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-749</link>
		<dc:creator>Rolland Fletcher,Jr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 23:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shortpoem.org/?p=1228#comment-749</guid>
		<description>poetry is like
the supreme court judging porn
you know what you see

Yes  5-7-5 is a form.....not poem, much as pentameter verse, but a vehicle to compress your thoughts and still show meaning.  Right or wrong it is what you see, hopefully you will feel it also.
Fletch</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>poetry is like<br />
the supreme court judging porn<br />
you know what you see</p>
<p>Yes  5-7-5 is a form&#8230;..not poem, much as pentameter verse, but a vehicle to compress your thoughts and still show meaning.  Right or wrong it is what you see, hopefully you will feel it also.<br />
Fletch</p>
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		<title>By: Patricia Machmiller</title>
		<link>http://shortpoem.org/poetry-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-747</link>
		<dc:creator>Patricia Machmiller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 21:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shortpoem.org/?p=1228#comment-747</guid>
		<description>Regarding the notion the haiku is/is not poetry, I like the definition of the distinguished scholar and poetry critic, Marjorie Perloff, who says, &quot;Poetry is the language art&quot; with &quot;the&quot; italicized. So if you agree that haiku is an art form that uses language, then the answer is clear.
--pjm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding the notion the haiku is/is not poetry, I like the definition of the distinguished scholar and poetry critic, Marjorie Perloff, who says, &#8220;Poetry is the language art&#8221; with &#8220;the&#8221; italicized. So if you agree that haiku is an art form that uses language, then the answer is clear.<br />
&#8211;pjm</p>
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		<title>By: AgSynclair</title>
		<link>http://shortpoem.org/poetry-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-746</link>
		<dc:creator>AgSynclair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 16:01:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shortpoem.org/?p=1228#comment-746</guid>
		<description>LOL.....5-7-5: &quot;GOT IT.&quot; No doubt after countless attempts....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL&#8230;..5-7-5: &#8220;GOT IT.&#8221; No doubt after countless attempts&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Neal Whitman</title>
		<link>http://shortpoem.org/poetry-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-745</link>
		<dc:creator>Neal Whitman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 19:16:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shortpoem.org/?p=1228#comment-745</guid>
		<description>Dear AgSynclair,

Thank you for affirming the difficulty of writing good poetry. At a time when there seems to be more writers than readers, some blame for the amount of bad poetry could be laid, as you note, at the World Wide Web door. My mother-in-law (who loves me very much and I love her) knows that I write haiku, so she emailed me this from The New York Times:

A New Yorker&#039;s Haiku

They amble slowly,
Gazing at the tall buildings.
Move! I&#039;m late for work.

Hmmm... I can see the fingers counting as it was composed: 5 - 7 - 5 : &quot;Got it.&quot;

I will leave for another day comment on the related form, senryu, which targets human nature, often our foibles. In any case, when I read this &quot;haiku&quot; from The New York Times, I thought, &quot;There we go again — one more example of haiku reduced to clever word smithing.&quot;

Charles Trumball, editor of Modern Haiku, reminds us of the miracle that is haiku: &quot;two concrete images that create new and unexpected resonance.&quot;

Amicus poeticae,
Neal Whitman</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear AgSynclair,</p>
<p>Thank you for affirming the difficulty of writing good poetry. At a time when there seems to be more writers than readers, some blame for the amount of bad poetry could be laid, as you note, at the World Wide Web door. My mother-in-law (who loves me very much and I love her) knows that I write haiku, so she emailed me this from The New York Times:</p>
<p>A New Yorker&#8217;s Haiku</p>
<p>They amble slowly,<br />
Gazing at the tall buildings.<br />
Move! I&#8217;m late for work.</p>
<p>Hmmm&#8230; I can see the fingers counting as it was composed: 5 &#8211; 7 &#8211; 5 : &#8220;Got it.&#8221;</p>
<p>I will leave for another day comment on the related form, senryu, which targets human nature, often our foibles. In any case, when I read this &#8220;haiku&#8221; from The New York Times, I thought, &#8220;There we go again — one more example of haiku reduced to clever word smithing.&#8221;</p>
<p>Charles Trumball, editor of Modern Haiku, reminds us of the miracle that is haiku: &#8220;two concrete images that create new and unexpected resonance.&#8221;</p>
<p>Amicus poeticae,<br />
Neal Whitman</p>
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		<title>By: AgSynclair</title>
		<link>http://shortpoem.org/poetry-or-not/comment-page-1/#comment-744</link>
		<dc:creator>AgSynclair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 15:15:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shortpoem.org/?p=1228#comment-744</guid>
		<description>Haiku is indeed &quot;poetry&quot;, and very difficult to write well.

Like all poetry since the advent of the World Wide Web, we&#039;ve been exposed to so much poorly written Haiku, we sometimes forget just how &quot;poetic&quot; it really is...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haiku is indeed &#8220;poetry&#8221;, and very difficult to write well.</p>
<p>Like all poetry since the advent of the World Wide Web, we&#8217;ve been exposed to so much poorly written Haiku, we sometimes forget just how &#8220;poetic&#8221; it really is&#8230;</p>
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